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Friday, February 3, 2006
Second Day of the Novena to Our Lady of Lourdes
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Today is the Second day of this Novena to Our Lady of Lourdes. Please join me in praying this novena even if you have not started yet.

Novena (Feb 2-10):

O ever Immaculate Virgin, Mother of Mercy, Health of the Sick, Refuge of Sinners, Comfort to the Afflicted,you know my wants, my troubles, my sufferings. Deign to cast upon me a look of mercy.

By appearing in the Grotto of Lourdes, you were pleased to make it a privileged sanctuary, whence you dispense your favors; and already many sufferers have obtained the cure of their infirmities, both spiritual and corporal.I come, therefore, with the most unbounded confidence to implore your maternal intercession.

Obtain, O loving Mother, the granting of my requests.Through gratitude for favors, I will endeavor to imitate your virtues that I may one day share your glory.Our Lady of Lourdes, pray for us. Amen.

(Our Father, Hail Mary, Glory Be.)

21 comments:

del_button February 3, 2006 at 6:42 AM
Aaron said...

i don't wish to be offensive, only to correct you using God's Holy word, no where in the bible does it tell us to pray to Mary, so, I'm sorry, but she really isn't hearing your prayer, you have been very misled by the ways of the catholic church, but i understand that is your life, countless times in the Bible, God tells us to pray directly to him, he tells us to lay all of our worries and wants on HIM, not Mary. SHe may have been Jesus' mother, and anyone would be highly favored to be Jesus mother, but she died and went to heaven because of her faith that one can only be saved by faith in Jesus Christ alone. The Bible tells us numerous times of the only way to heaven as well, Ephesians 2:8-9 "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the Gift of God, not by works so that no one can boast." No where in the Bible does it say that we can get to heaven by doing good things, but instead the Bible tells us that our motivation for our "good works" is Jesus, he died for us, so now we show our thanks to him. We sin way to much to be saved by works, from the moment all of us were conceived we were sinful, but luckily God chose us to be in heaven with him, and by his Holy Spirit he comes into the hearts of people, not by their efforts. I will be praying for you as well as the whole catholic church.

del_button February 3, 2006 at 7:57 AM
Barb, sfo said...

Aaron, we pray that Mary will INTERCEDE for us--that is, that she will join her voice to ours and bring our prayers to God.
It's kind of like asking a friend of yours to pray for you--only much more powerful, as Mary is already in Heaven.

del_button February 3, 2006 at 11:21 AM
Ma Beck said...

Hence, the "Holy Mary, Mother of God, PRAY FOR US sinners, now and at the hour of our death."

How many times do people say "I'll keep you in my prayers" or "Say a prayer for my cousin with cancer", but they are horrified at the thought that Catholics ASK MARY the Mother of GOD to PRAY FOR US!

Aaron, please do yourself a favor and read "Hail, Holy Queen" by Scott Hahn. If you want, I'll buy it for you.

Don't stay away from a great and powerful intercessor-mother like Mary.
Here's a website to help you understand further what Catholics believe.

http://www.davidmacd.com/catholic/mary_do_catholics_pray_to_her.htm

Even if you don't convert like Scott Hahn did, you can still be an intelligent source of information when your friends at church say "Catholics worship Mary."

God bless you, Aaron. Remember, Christians are playing on the same team.

"And all generations shall call me Blessed."

del_button February 3, 2006 at 3:30 PM
Aaron said...

ma beck, i am not looking to convert, i am only looking to proclaim the true word of God to you FROM THE BIBLE in order that the Holy Spirit may work in your hearts. I notice that your arguments only have been coming from Catholic opinion and books and websites, not the Holy Word of God. None of those things that you argue with were verbally inspired, so there is much error found in them, the word of God,however, is completely true and was inspired by God himself, that is why i use it to proclaim the truth to you

del_button February 3, 2006 at 3:40 PM
Juparis said...

I have my own question:

How do you know that, when you pray, that you are praying to Mary and not just a demonic spirit that is giving you "signs"?

There is no saddness in heaven, and this means we will have no memory or connection with Earth, because it is such a wicked and loathesome place. Don't you think that hearing these prayers would be somewhat troublesome? It doesn't add up..

Additionally, why don't you pray to God himself, instead of relying on some other aura that may not even be there for you?

del_button February 3, 2006 at 3:48 PM
schleef said...

1 Timothy 2:5 "For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus." God answers our prayers because Jesus, and no one else, intercedes for us. the bible also tells us this Hebrews 9:14-15 "How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God!
For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant." because jesus was the perfect sacrifice for us our sins our forgiven through him.

i tried the website and it didnt work. i find it interesting though that aaron referenced the Bible while you two referenced a website and a catholic book but not the Holy Bible. God's word is true and perfect. Romans 1:16 "I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile." under that context i ask you to find your beliefs about mary directly from the Bible. In my study i have never found a passage that mentioned that mary intercedes, has powerful prayers or even prays for us in the first place. furthermore jesus declared mary's status as his mother inconsequential. Matthew 12:48-50 "He replied to him, "Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?" Pointing to his disciples, he said, "Here are my mother and my brothers. For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother." instead of even bothering with mary focus on salvation which only comes through christ. 1 Peter 3:18 "For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit."

del_button February 3, 2006 at 3:50 PM
Moneybags said...

For answers to why we pray to Mary please see my post on that:

http://thecatholicrosary.blogspot.com/2005/09/why-should-i-pray-to-mary-instead-of.html

Aaron, I also use the Bible but use it as the Church proclaims it should be interpreted. Any twisting of scripture against the Church is just what Satan did the in the desert when He tempted Our Lord.

I do believe in the saint's intercession. I believe in Mary's intercession too.

Here's another brief post of mine on the saints, where I state the saints are not dead but alive:

http://acatholiclife.blogspot.com/2005/10/are-saints-alive.html

del_button February 3, 2006 at 7:14 PM
Theocoid said...

You three (Aaron, heaven forbid, and schleef) are confusing worship with prayer. Prayer is a request or entreaty. People used to use this term all the time without any hint or accusation of idolatry. Your limited focus on the most popular meaning as opposed to the history of the term's use obscures the truth of the matter. In fact, dictionary.com still lists this additional meaning as a current usage.

The question is, do we worship Mary? No. We request her prayers, just as we would to any other saint, friend, family member, or correligionist. In addition, you seem not to make a distinction between latria (worship) and dulia (honor given to saints). This is a long-standing Tradition in the Catholic faith going back to the early Church fathers (see http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05188b.htm). St. Augustine even refers to this in City of God.

The problem is that your historical framework is limited to the Reformation and after. Ours is not. Your focus is solely on scripture, whereas we focus on Scripture, Tradition, and the teaching authority of the Church as Paul himself indicated we should (1 Cor. 11:2, 2 Thess. 2:15, 1 Tim 3:15, 2 Tim 2:2). Also see 2 Pet. 1:20 and 3:16.

Also, keep in mind that Mary in the Magnificat (Luke 1:48) indicated that "all generations will call me blessed." The first lines of the Hail Mary are directly from scripture (see Luke 1 again).

While you're looking those verses up, consider finding the following:

- Where do the words "faith alone" occur in scripture?

- Where do the words "scripture alone" occur in scripture?

If you want to know what early Christians believed, read the early Church fathers. Scripture (as John acknowledged) does not include all that Christ did. Hence, we need Tradition, and a teaching authority, along with scripture to form our faith.

del_button February 3, 2006 at 7:25 PM
T.O. said...

Jn 21:25 points out that everything is not contained in the Bible; we need Tradition also. Theocoid makes a very good distinction between worship and intercession; that has to be defined, and the latter is how Catholics define their prayers to Mary. Jn 2:1-5 tells the story of Cana where Mary interceded with her son on behalf of the wedding guests. She works like that for us now as well, but please do not confuse it with worship.

del_button February 4, 2006 at 6:21 PM
schleef said...

First of all John 21:25 "Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written." simply states that John did not write everything that Jesus did because that would be completely impractical and unecessary.

The bible tells us all we need to know is found in scripture. 2 Timothy 3:15-16 "and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness." Of the three things that theocid mentioned, scripture, tradition, and the church, only scripture is infallible because it was "God-breathed." and does not have its origin in man but rather God. 1 Peter 1 20-21 "Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation. For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit."

Jesus explained the dangers of emphasising tradition to the pharissees in mark 7:6-8 "He replied, "Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written:
" 'These people honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
They worship me in vain;
their teachings are but rules taught by men.' You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to the traditions of men." emphasis on tradition leads to us to lose sight of scripture even if the traditions may have come from God. over time tradition's meaning can be lost and distorted until the meaning or takes away from scripture. Jesus continued this point in verse 13, "Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down." the jewish traditions may have come from God but emphasis on tradition had nullified the word of God. Is this not what the catholic church does when it focuses on tradition as a source for faith in Christ?

as far as the passages that were referenced:
1 Corinthians 11:2 "I praise you for remembering me in everything and for holding to the teachings, just as I passed them on to you." The emphasis of this passage is not the church but scripture because scripture is the the teachings "just as i passed them down to you" and not a church explanation.

2 Thess. 2:15 "So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter." this passage also emphasises scripture because that is where the teachings we should hold firm to are recorded.

1 Tim. 3:15 "if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God's household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth." alone this passage emphasizes the church but look at 1 Tim. 3:14-15 "Although I hope to come to you soon, I am writing you these instructions so that, if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God's household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth." The church's authority in truth that it has been given from God is to gaurd, protect and preach the scripture. Paul wrote the letter and entrusted it to the church so the church could preach it to the people. In the same way God has given the church the scriptures so the church could preach those scriptures. therefore the authority of the church is beneath that of the scriptures.

2 Tim 2:2 "And the things you have heard me say in the presence of many witnesses entrust to reliable men who will also be qualified to teach others." Paul establishes the need to teach teachers to pass on the gospel. unfortunately all men are sinful and no one can be a perfect teacher. also false teachers will come and distort teachings that were passed down. Paul notes that this was already happening in verses 15-17 "Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth. Avoid godless chatter, because those who indulge in it will become more and more ungodly. Their teaching will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus" False teachers distort the truth that has been handed down to them and were even present in the early church. because of this, teachers must "correctly handle the word of truth." teachers must submit to scripture.

2 Peter 1:20 'Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation." This passage confirms that the basis of our faith must come from scripture. verse 21 says, "For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit." We need to rely on the scriptures for our faith because they were inspired by the Holy Spirit and infallible.

2 Peter 3:16 "He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction." the verse before clarifies this passage. "Bear in mind that our Lord's patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him." Scripture is wisdom given directly from God and tells the story of salvation. Scripture can also be difficult to understand and distorted by false teachers. this does not mean that we should trust scripture any less. rather, as we encounter false teachers we must rely on scripture all the more to defend our faith and look at scripture to interpret itself. we do this by looking at how each passage relates to the entire bible and also the context under each passage is given. this ensures a better understanding of scripture and prevents ignorance.

scripture, inspired by God, is therefore the only source for our faith.

finally we know that we are saved by faith alone from Romans 3:28 "For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law." and we know this from John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only son that whoever believes in him will not parish but have eternal life." i dont know what it would be like live a life where i had to do more to be saved than simply believe. how would i know if i had done enough? and how could i think that anything i do could contribute to my own salvation when the Son of God, Christ Jesus died on a cross to save me.

del_button February 4, 2006 at 11:32 PM
Pierrepont said...

"FROM THE BIBLE"
Which Bible, the New King James, the Kings James, NIV, Douay-Theims, etc?

This is important because I was raised a strict Southern Baptist. I was told every Sunday "The New King James is the breath of God, and its been breathed for all Baptist." I thought that was great and I thought I was ready to defend the faith. When I learned the NKJ was less than 30 years old, I thought "Surely if God breathed the NKJ just for us, why did he wait all the way until 1979?" When I asked my Minister, he handed me a King James and told me to read it instead? I still have it but that is what started my research on the history of the Bible. I was also shocked to find out that the Cannon of the Anglican Church included the deuterocanonical books until the Archbishop of Canturburry purged them in 1886.

http://www.bible-researcher.com/nkjv.html

del_button February 4, 2006 at 11:47 PM
Juparis said...

I believe he is citing the NIV, the most widely-accepted translation of the original manuscripts throughout the Lutheran fellowship today.

Citing the King James version would not suit well, because the King James version was translated from a translation of one of the earliest manuscripts. It is not entirely reliable, but I believe it is the overall concept that we must agree on, and not the exact wording...

del_button February 5, 2006 at 1:14 AM
Pierrepont said...

"I believe it is the overall concept that we must agree on, and not the exact wording."
This I agree, with the exception the Catholic Bible has 73 books and the Protestant Bibles have 66. Alot of Catholic Doctrine has roots in the deuterocanonical books that many protestants call the apocrypha. Some of the newer NIV and other versions have a copy of the deuterocanonical books listed in the back.

If one is to attempt to discuss or debate Catholic Doctrine, the fullness of the truth as passed down for centuries must be understood. Since all the Holy Books up until 1886, contained the deuterocanonical books, understanding them is important to understanding Catholic Doctrine.

del_button February 5, 2006 at 7:36 AM
T.O. said...

Yes; if you really want to get technical about the Bible, we should all be reading them in their original languages (Hebrew, Greek and Aramaic.) ANY translation cannot fully to justice to what is there. But since most of us cannot read the Bible in the original languages, we use whatever modern translation we feel is closest to the roots of our faith. In my theological college, the norm is the NRSV because of its inclusivity practices, but we routinely consult the KJV, NASB, NIV and a host of others (all available online at blueletterbible.org and crosswalk.com) for exegetical work to help us get to the original meaning of the text.

If you use only the Scriptures as the basis for your faith, how do you deal with the inconsistencies in the Bible? I'll give you an easy example: what day was Jesus crucified? The synoptics say Passover. John says the day before Passover. They can't both be right. How do you deal with the obvious contradictions and errors in Scripture?

del_button February 5, 2006 at 7:36 AM
T.O. said...

Sorry, that should have been "do justice to."

del_button February 5, 2006 at 2:50 PM
schleef said...

i did use the niv in my citings. sorry for the confusion. I do not know what scriptural errors you speak of and how anyone can be certain that they are in fact errors. is it not entirely possible that jesus' crucifixion started on the day before passover and he continued to hang on the cross when passover began? The bible is God's word. because God is far superior to us it is perfectly natural that some things in His book will not make sense to us. this does not make it any less true. we avoid this as much as we can by letting scripture interrpret scripture and looking at the context of the passages as i mentioned before. however when things dont make sense to us we simply take them on faith and believe. Job 12:13 To God belong wisdom and power; counsel and understanding are his.

del_button February 5, 2006 at 5:18 PM
Pierrepont said...

T.O. that one is actually pretty easy. If two people witness the same event, there wording will almost always be different. Their recollection will differ slightly. This is why something may often give the appearance to be conflicting. That is why I like the debate over the existence of the master document called "Q." If its around, it wasn't copied very well :-)

As far as the indiginous languages of those who wrote the holy books, we have biblical, linguist scholars who interpret them for us. That is why I think its awesome that many Catholic Priest familiarize themselves and learn the languages you mention.

Imagine my suprise when I learned that Jesus real name was Yeshua.

I'm very pleased to hear about you attending a theological bible college. Hopefully you will be able to lead many to Christ through your works.

del_button February 5, 2006 at 5:32 PM
Moneybags said...

Schleef,

You write: "2 Thess. 2:15 "So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter."

Right there is the answer - we have our faith built on scripture and the Traditions of Christ. These "word of mouth" truths are precisely those traditions that have been passed down through the centuries. The truths of the letter are those that are recorded in scripture. We need both of these truths to serve Christ perfectly.

del_button February 5, 2006 at 9:28 PM
schleef said...

mr moneybags have you ever played the game telephone? if you have you would understand how a spoken message carried over a group of people will get distorted over time. Furthermore i ask you what are the teachings paul and the other disciple's taught? Has Paul ever spoken to you? If he has not, then it is impossible to be certain what teachings he would have taught you. However we know what paul taught with certainty becasue we have letters he wrote. The letters have not changed have your traditions remained as constant. Finally, Do you want your beliefs to rest on a giant game of telephone?

del_button February 8, 2006 at 8:19 PM
Pierrepont said...

Is it possible that God inspired the Priest continuing the teachings and traditions (or "telephone" as said earlier) by word of mouth? I think it is very possible. If God gave the holy book writers inspiration, why not the early Priest who were tasked as the keepers of tradition? Lets see what the Holy Scriptures say about the passing of tradition?

"For the lips of the priest shall keep knowledge, and they shall seek the law at his mouth: because he is the angel of the Lord of hosts." -Prophecy Of Malachias 2:7

Also found in St Paul's First Letter to the Corinthians 11:2 and 15:1-2. As well as 'The Second Epistle The Thessalonians' 2:15 and 'The Second Epistle To Timothy 2:2'

It would be wonderful if the Bible were "self translating." But unfortunately it is not. If it were we wouldn't have false teachings and doctrines like the Rapture, etc. What we do have is the Tradition of the Apostles passed to the early Chuch Fathers, and handed down generation to generation, to present day. We as Catholics call this "Sacred Apostolic Tradition." Many of the sects in Christianity don't have this becuase,unfortunately they broke away from the Original Church.

del_button March 11, 2009 at 8:00 AM
Anonymous said...

to see absolutely :
http://prodigeeucharistique.blogspot.com/

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