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Tuesday, August 8, 2006
Salvation Outside of the Church?

I wanted to point out that I have updated my post: Can Non-Catholics be saved? Check it out!


del_button August 8, 2006 at 11:07 PM
Amber said...

I believe I only have two choices at this point: enter the Catholic faith or be, at best, agnostic. The second, of which, is not an option.

del_button August 9, 2006 at 7:00 AM
Moneybags said...

Well, I hope and pray you do enter the Catholic faith. Please, if you have time, look through my articles on my blog. There are many under the Catholic Categories section (which is in my sidebar)especially in apologetics that could be helpful to you.

I also put together a little site dedicated to teaching Catholic things. You may find some of the things there useful:

del_button August 22, 2006 at 3:39 PM
The Unseen One said...

I appeal to all Protestants and fellow Christians to not put your salvation at risk at all.

Thanks for the concern, but I am already Saved. ;)

del_button August 22, 2006 at 4:47 PM
Moneybags said...

Please explain how...


del_button August 22, 2006 at 5:53 PM
The Unseen One said...

Through Christ's sacrifice and by His Grace.

I have repented of my sins and placed my faith in Christ. Not merely belief, as so many sadly think is required, but life-changing faith, trust, and dependence on Christ.

del_button August 22, 2006 at 6:04 PM
Moneybags said...

Not merely belief, as so many sadly think is required

Well, that's great to hear. If I may ask, what denomination are you?

del_button August 22, 2006 at 7:25 PM
The Unseen One said...

I worship at an Independent Fundamental Baptist church. I am not a stereotypical Baptist, though. ;) As one Episcopal minister once said about me: "A Baptist who reads the Church Fathers? How refreshing!"

You truly seem to have a heart for Christ. Praise God. Although only God knows the heart, I would believe that you are also Saved.

del_button August 22, 2006 at 7:49 PM
Moneybags said...

If I fall into mortal sin, I lose the sanctifying grace within me. That is why I am eternally greatful for Confession - it restores me to grace.

del_button August 22, 2006 at 8:10 PM
The Unseen One said...

I've committed what the Catholic church would consider a "mortal sin" pre-salvation. One that was instrumental in me seeking God. Christ's blood covers that sin, and all others I've committed. I have confessed my sins to God, and repented. I am now saved.

Just FYI, I understand Catholic doctrine. I went to a Catholic school from grades 8 - 12.

del_button August 22, 2006 at 9:03 PM
Moneybags said...

Then since you know Catholic doctrine, I hope you will one day enter the Church and receive Christ completely present in all of the Sacraments. It is far closer to Him than any protestant church will get you.

I know - I was in protestant churches before.

del_button August 22, 2006 at 9:21 PM
The Unseen One said...

It is far closer to Him than any protestant church will get you.

Again, I completely disagree. I am closer to Christ than I ever have been, including when I was attending Mass in Catholic churchs, services in Lutheran churchs, or a number of other churches I've attended in my journey towards Christ. I believe I have experienced Christ as strongly as anyone of my character and personality (lacking as they both may be) would in a Catholic church.

I know, I was in Catholic churches before. ;)

And understand, I am in no way dissing Catholicism. I find Mass beautiful, and I love the ancient traditions of the Catholic church. I just disagree with some of the doctrine.

Also once again, if I am starting to become tiresome or aggrivating, let me know and I shall offer my apologies and depart.

del_button August 22, 2006 at 10:11 PM
Moneybags said...

If someone were to reject even the smallest doctrine of the Church, he/she puts his salvation at risk. Everything the Church teaches is perfect because it is a divine institution founded by Christ. Only the Sacraments of the Church are real. For example, the Eucharist is only present in the Catholic Church. Sacraments must have proper matter and form to be valid. For the Eucharist, it must be bread and the prayers of consecration must be said by an ordained minister (a priest).

Your comments are not bothering me.

del_button August 23, 2006 at 9:03 AM
Sprocket said...

Sacraments must have proper matter and form to be valid. For the Eucharist, it must be bread and the prayers of consecration must be said by an ordained minister (a priest).

Jumping in ...

The mass and eucharist as demonstrated today doesn't reflect what is laid out int he SCriptures and what was written as 'books from antiquity'.

You said it 'must' be so and so ... so I can only conclude that to stress the Scriptural instruction and the first person accounts are legit as proof as to what is real.

You said must be bread - I agree. One single loaf of bread. 1 Corinthians gives us that instruction quite plainly, basing its source off of what was received by Paul divinely from he Lord who (as recorded int he Gospels) performed the action to eye witnesses. The Didache (~85 ad) uses almost the same language as Scripture to describe the same event.

Where did the wafer come from and how is it valid?

I see no instruction as to prayers of consecration, though I do see a prayer of thansgiving (as performed by Jesus Christ).

Also, why is the cup either abandoned or given limited exposure today? Again Scripture and historical manuscripts show a different set of circumstances.

Now having said that - I am not entirely speaking of the practice of the Cathloic church alone, many non-Catholic bodies of Chirstians don't perform the Memorial to Scriptural standard. So I'm no making an attack - I'm asking for your perspective.

del_button June 24, 2011 at 4:26 AM
Catholic Mission said...

The Italian diocesan priest Fr. Francesco Giordano studying at the Holy Cross University, Rome and working for his doctorate on the subject extra ecclesiam nulla salus says he affirms the dogma Cantate Domino, Council of Florence 1441.The ex cathedra dogma says all non Catholics, specifying, Jews, Protestants and Orthodox Christians needing to formally enter the Catholic Church to avoid Hell, which has fire.

One can affirm Cantate Domino which indicates everyone with no exception, de facto needs to enter the Church and, at the same time believe de jure; in principle, a non Catholic can be saved implicitly (baptism of desire etc) and it would be known only to God.

However Fr. Giordano’s position on 1) Fr. Leonard Feeney and 2) Lumen Gentium 16, Vatican Council II is not clear. He seems to contradict the dogma on these two points. Though, he told me at the Church Santa Maria di Nazareth, Boccea, Rome that he affirms Cantate Domino.

Fr. Giordano, who has studied at the University of Chicago, is a young priest fluent in English and Italian. He received his Licentiate from the University of St. Thomas Aquinas, Rome and the subject of his thesis there was outside the church there is no salvation.

Like St. Thomas Aquinas if one uses the defacto-dejure analysis it is possible to hold the ‘rigorist interpretation’ of the dogma and also affirm the baptism of desire (Council of Trent) and so not be considered a heretic. It does not have to be an either-or position i.e. the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus or the baptism of desire.

Fr. Giordano believes Cantate Domino is compatible with Vatican Council II, Catechism of the Catholic Church and other Magisterial documents.

-Lionel Andrades

del_button June 24, 2011 at 4:27 AM
Catholic Mission said...

Father Leonard Feeney was not excommunicated for heresy: No Tridentine Rite Mass without Outside the Church There is No Salvation (Extra ecclesiam nulla salus)

If there is an objection that Fr. Leonard Feeney was excommunicated for affirming extra ecclesiam nulla salus, this is a falsehood. The 'dogma' referred to in the Letter of the Holy Office to the Archbishop of Boston 1949 indicates that all Jews in Boston need to convert into the Church to avoid Hell.
Now, among those things which the Church has always preached and will never cease to preach is contained also that infallible statement by which we are taught that there is no salvation outside the Church.

However, this dogma must be understood in that sense in which the Church herself understands it. For, it was not to private judgments that Our Savior gave for explanation those things that are contained in the deposit of faith, but to the teaching authority of the Church…-Letter of the Holy Office 1949 to the Archbishop of Boston (Emphasis added).

Here is the text of the dogma.

“The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.” -Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441. Ex cathedra – from the website

So the Letter of the Holy Office referring to the 'dogma' supported Fr. Leonard Feeney on doctrine. The dogma (Cantate Domino) indicates all Jews in Boston need to convert into the Church to avoid Hell. This was exactly what Fr. Leonard Feeney taught.

There is no Church document which says that Fr. Leonard Feeney was excommunicated for heresy. There is no also no Church document which says that the Church has retracted extra ecclesiam nulla salus. The Church still upholds the dogma.

del_button June 24, 2011 at 4:29 AM
Catholic Mission said...

The diocese of Manchester, USA recently appointed a chaplain for the St. Benedict Centre, Richmond, New Hampshire and approved their chapel. The diocese of Worcester has granted canonical status to the St. Benedict’s Abbey monks and the Sisters of St. Benedict Center and the community in Still River, Massachusetts, St. Anns House. The Abbey was recognized as early as 1988 with the approval of Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger.All these communities inspired by Fr. Leonard Feeney uphold the ex cathedra dogma outside the church there is no salvation which is in accord with Ad Gentes 7, Vatican Council II, the Catechism of the Catholic Church 845, 846, Dominus Iesus 20 and the Letter of the Holy Office 1949 issued during the pontificate of Pope Pius XII. They hold what the secular media calls 'the rigorist interpretation' of the dogma.

Their recognition by the diocese was also formally approved by Ecclesia Dei, Vatican since they use the Extraordinary Form of the Mass, permitted by the moto proprio Summorum Pontificium.The Tridentine Rite Mass, the Mass of the popes and saints.

Pius XII was saying in the Letter of the Holy Office all Jews in Boston need Catholic Faith and the baptism of water to avoid Hell. (1) The Letter (Haec Suprema) issued by Cardinal Ottaviani supported Fr. Feeney on doctrine and criticized him for being disobedient to the Archbishop of Boston, whom it was believed then, was faithful to the Church on doctrine. The first part of the Letter referred to doctrine/dogma and the second part to discipline/disobedience.

There is no Magisterial document which states that Fr. Feeney was excommunicated for heresy. The Letter of the Holy Office included in the Denzinger–Enchiridion refers to only ‘disobedience’. The Letter really supported Fr. Leonard Feeney with ‘the dogma’ it needs to be repeated. So it is factually incorrect to say the priest was excommunicated for heresy

There is no explicit or implicit Baptism of Desire that we know of and it is only explicit for God. The ex cathedra dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus clearly says everyone must be a VISIBLE; FORMAL member of the Catholic Church to go to Heaven and avoid Hell and there are no exceptions. The Jewish Left media created the phrase Boston Heresy Case and refer to a rigorist and non rigorist interpretation, as if there can be two interpretations of an infallible teaching . The rigorist interpretation is in accord with the Letter of the Holy Office 1949, Vatican Council II (Ad Gentes 7) and the Catechism of the Catholic Church (845,846)

When Fr. Leonard Feeney and his communities say there is no baptism of desire they mean that there is no baptism of desire defacto or de jure (in principle) that we can know of. None of us knows any case of a person saved with the baptism of desire or in invincible ignorance.

The communities of Fr. Leonard Feeney in the USA accept the baptism of desire as a concept; as a possibility, in ‘certain circumstances’ (Letter of the Holy Office 1949). They have also provided a definition of the baptism of desire with its conditions on their website (

So it is false for a priest offering the Tridentine Rite Mass to reject the dogma Cantate Domino as it was known for centuries, claiming, that Fr. Leonard Feeney was excommunicated for affirming this very dogma.

There can be no Tridentine Rite Mass without extra ecclesiam nulla salus.

-Lionel Andrades

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